Balance & Beyond Podcast

Ever wondered why accomplished women often feel like they're just faking it?

Join Jo and Mindset Coach Sabina as we unravel the complexities of imposter syndrome in high-achieving women, a paradox where external success often amplifies internal doubts. Despite reaching career heights and financial stability, many women wrestle with a critical inner voice that questions their worthiness. 

We explore how these feelings lead to behaviours where women overcompensate to prove themselves, and discuss the importance of creating safe spaces to normalise and break this cycle of guilt. By shedding light on these pervasive myths of unworthiness, we aim to empower women to own their accomplishments with confidence.

We dig into Dr. Valerie Young's imposter syndrome categories, guiding listeners on a path to self-awareness and balance. From the Superwoman's burnout to the Natural Genius's struggle with challenge, we unpack these identities to help you identify and manage your pressures. Embracing support is crucial, especially in overcoming perfectionism and hyper-independence. Our discussion emphasises the power of community and collaboration, encouraging listeners to connect with like-minded individuals who celebrate their multifaceted identities. Join us to uncover strategies that can help you redefine success and tackle imposter syndrome head-on.

Episode Transcript

INTRO: Welcome to Balance and Beyond, the podcast for ambitious women who refuse to accept burnout as the price of success. Here, we’re committed to empowering you with the tools and strategies you need to achieve true balance, where your career, relationships and health all thrive, and where you have the power to define success on your own terms. I honour the space you’ve created for yourself today, so take a breath, and let's dive right in…

Jo Host

Welcome to today's episode, where I am joined by the wonderful Sabina, and we are talking all things imposter syndrome. Welcome, Sabina!

Sabina Guest

Hello, hello Jo, lovely to be here again!

Jo Host

There are some very interesting trends that we are seeing emerge, and there's a particular trend amongst high achieving women that it's time that we call attention to it. It's a word that is thrown around a lot. But, when you put it together with almost a label that many women identify with, there are some really, really interesting compensatory behaviours, and side effects, that we are seeing. So, Sabina, is it time to reveal exactly what we're talking about here? 

Sabina Guest

I think so, absolutely. Because, the conversation is coming in hot and strong, from a lot of brilliant women that we're speaking to, and are you going to do the big reveal?

Jo Host

I shall, I'll just leave everybody in suspense just a little bit longer! What we are seeing is, when you are a self-confessed “high achiever”, which many people in our world call a “Type A”, call it whatever you will, that the imposter syndrome rages really hard. And this is particularly the case when, as a successful woman who has got to a particular level in your career. You've probably got financial security, maybe you've got children or a partner, you've got the house, you have everything on the outside. 

And yet, on the inside, the level of self-doubt, the lack of confidence, the inner critic, that is brutal. Actually, it seems to be getting louder amongst women, isn't it, Sabina? Despite the fact that you look at them on the outside and go, “You have nothing to worry about!” And they don't even sound like they have anything to worry about. 

Sabina Guest

That's exactly right! It's almost like the more they are recognised for their efforts, their performance, their achievements, their prowess in the workplace. It's almost like, the more that inner critic wobbles and starts to rage. And there's this real dissonance between these different parts. And, a lot of the conversations we're having are, “I know I'm doing really well.” “I actually know that I'm really good at what I'm doing”, and “I'm receiving that feedback.” 

And yet, there's this nagging, gnawing feeling and voice that's telling me, “What if it's a fluke?” “What if I can't sustain this?” “What if they're going to find out?” Dot, dot, dot. So, there are these doubts that are starting to rage, that really need to be spoken about, I think, in safe spaces. Because, you and I, and our coaches, often hear behind the scenes, what is going on in the mind of a high-performing woman. But, these conversations need to be more public. They need to be encouraged, to lift that level of shame, and wondering, “Is it just me?”

Jo Host

We can assure you, it's not! And it's also not luck that got you your success. Things weren't given to you on a silver platter. You didn't have other people shoulder tapping you. There were all these beliefs that we tell ourselves, that are all essentially say, “I didn't earn this, and therefore, I don't deserve it.” 

So, we see a really interesting range of compensatory behaviours, don't we, Sabina? When this “imposter syndrome” rears, most people have heard of this term. It's probably not new to you. 

However, particularly when you blend the “high achiever imposter”, we actually have an event coming up called “The High Achiever Paradox.” So, make sure you stay tuned to the show notes, and make sure you come along to that one. Yeah, these compensatory behaviours can be quite wild, can't they? 

Sabina Guest

Absolutely, and it's almost like, the more you are in your zone of expertise, and the more that you're being recognized for being in your stride, there's a sense of, “Is it allowed for this to be easy?” “Surely, I should be ‘effort-ing’ more.” And then these compensatory behaviours start coming in. Like “OK, I'm just going to really prove that I'm in the right position, or in the right room, and I'm going to go over and above and beyond.” 

And, instead of stepping back, and really landing in where they're at in terms of their career, suddenly, there's this inner critic that is raging, that is driving these behaviours, that ultimately, are not sustainable. And the thoughts, and the mindset, that are not getting you to an empowering place. 

Jo Host

And, interestingly, what that can look like in the workplace is, you mentioned that, “Well, I've got to prove to myself …”. That “prove myself” energy. And I know I've been on a journey of, often things in corporate came to me relatively easy. I then would feel really guilty about that. Because, “It's meant to be hard!” 

So, “I'm now going to go above and beyond, to prove that I had to work really, really hard, even though this thing happened to come easily to me.” So, I'm going to now double down on my efforts.” “I'm going to do all this extra work around it, just so that I can prove to people that I'm not a freeloader, and I didn't just get gifted this thing, exactly.” Because, “If it's a gift, and you know how to do it, you should just take the gift.”

Sabina Guest

Exactly! So, it's almost like, it sounds a bit dramatic, but it's almost like we're gaslighting ourselves into going, “Do I actually deserve this?” “No, I'm going to make it even harder for myself, to feel deserving of it.” And it's upside down, and yeah. 

And the thing is, is that you were probably noticed in your career for your phenomenal efforts, and you were encouraged to rise up through the ranks, because you were doing things with ease and grace. But then that voice suddenly kicks in and says, “Oh, no, no, no, no, no!” “I'm going to set the bar even higher, so that I feel worthy and deserving!” It's crazy! 

Jo Host

Yeah, and what I always found really curious, was when you are recognized for that at work. You never want to let work down. So, you continue to push. And then, when we talk about this not being sustainable, it then doesn't become sustainable in other areas of life. So, when that inner critic doesn't allow you to receive any praise, it doesn't allow you to actually onboard it, because you'll brush it off. 

You'll make a self-deprecating joke about, “Oh, I was just in the right spot at the right time.” Well, no, how about you actually claim that you deserve that success? Or, people try to push it off, and then you go home and wonder, “Why does no one appreciate me?” “No one sees me, no one gives me any credit, because you won't take it elsewhere in life.” 

Sabina Guest

Exactly, and that's the shadow side. There's this desire for recognition, but also shrinking from praise. So, there again, as with many of the things that we talk about, there are nuances to all of this. But actually, when you start to peel back your layers of awareness, and see what's playing out, it's actually not that difficult to turn things around. 

Jo Host

No, and we've come across some really interesting, I guess you would say “categories of imposter” that we wanted to share with you today, to help people get a grip. Because saying, “I've got an imposter”, “I've got a mean girl inside my head”, “I've got a critic”, that's a bit of a brush statement. It can be tricky to do something with that, especially when you don't have the toolkit that those who are, I would say, “lucky” or “smart enough” to come and work with us, who actually get it. 

So let's talk, Sabina, about what some of these types are. And I guess, as we share each of these, curious for you, as a listener, to link into, “Okay, how much of this feels true for you?” There's five types. Maybe all five types you resonate with, in which case, you really need to call us. 

Or, there may be just one, where you're more like, “Oh, okay, actually, yes!” “I can see that in me!” So, these are courtesy of Dr. Valerie Young, just to ensure we're giving credit where credit's due. So, Sabina, the first type of imposter that we see, and it's something that many of us wear with a badge of honour, and that is that we are “Superwoman.”

Yes, this is this belief that we have to have it all! We have to excel in everything. “I'm a high achiever.” “I'm going to ‘high achieve’ in my career.” “I'm going to be the best mum!” “I'm going to bake cupcakes.” “My house is going to look spotless!” “I'm always going to look put together!” Uh, you know, “I'm going to have this in my bank account!” And, “If we are anything less than doing all of these things, and holding all of these balls at the same time, then we are a failure.” 

Sabina Guest

That's it! How exhausting is that? I just feel tired listening to that. It's just like, “Oh my God, Superwoman!” “Oh my gosh, I just want to sit down, have a cup of tea, and relax!” But yeah, it's this, where the bar has been set so high for so long, that you actually feel that you can't take a breath, or take a break, or step back, or take your foot off the accelerator, for fear of not being incredible, and fabulous. “And what will people think?” 

Jo Host

Which is a huge driver of burnout. And it puts us in our masculine energy, it puts us in hustle mode, and it then becomes impossible to slow down. Because, if you're not Superwoman, well then, you're comatose on the couch. 

Sabina Guest

That's it. All or nothing. 

Jo Host

Yeah, all or nothing. And that's what many women do, is they're superhuman during the day, and then come 10 o'clock, and they're no good to anybody. Or, sometimes even earlier. 7 o'clock hits, and they're screaming at the kids, because they are done. Their emotional battery is dead, their social battery is dead, they can't regulate themselves, and they're kaput. Like, Superwoman is now deflated. 

Sabina Guest

Yes, exactly! And then, and the flip side of that, is when you've given everything to work, and you want to, you desire to bring all of that into your home life. And if you don't have enough in the tank to do that, then you feel like a failure. So, there's the imposter. It comes from good intentions. I want to be my best, be amazing, but I actually can't sustain this in every area of my life. So, that's one persona, that we see with the imposter. 

Jo Host

Absolutely so! Another one that we see is called the “natural genius.” And this is where some people hold the belief that the skills, or the knowledge, or whatever they need, should be intuitive and easy, and any struggle is proof that they're inadequate. So, this can look like you know some of the behaviours if you, if something doesn't come really easy to you, then you'll give up. So, an interesting one, Sabina, isn't it? That will dovetail into another. But, this can be a really toxic belief, if we're not careful. 

Sabina Guest

Absolutely. I just think about conversations that I have, you know, with doctors, cardiologists. You know, people in really high pressure jobs, where, frankly, they've had to study really hard throughout their entire childhood. You know, early adult years, continuing professional development. And yet, sometimes I hear them say, “You know, I look around at my colleagues, and they just seem to be able to effortlessly do this under pressure.” 

The other side of this comparison is, “Oh, it's not coming to me completely effortlessly, therefore, I'm in the wrong room.” Or, “It comes easily to everybody else.” “Is there something wrong with me?” And no, the fact is, that the path of mastery, or subject matter expertise, or being in your zone of genius, those who are really genuinely born with natural genius, that doesn't need to be cultivated and worked. 

I think it was Malcolm Gladwell, who talks about the path of mastery. It's 10,000 hours. You could be born with incredible talent, but you still have to work at it. It's still a craft. So, telling yourself that you have to have “a magic wand” and be “perfect effortlessly” is ridiculous, and we can't hold ourselves to that standard. And yet, these are the things that we hear from the women that we work with. 

Jo Host

Absolutely, which really does tail into another one of the imposters that we see. And I think this may be one of the big ones. And this is kind of aligned to this natural genius, this belief of needing to be the expert, and this is where we need to know everything, we need to be on top of everything. 

And if we don't lack knowledge, or we aren't prepared for every possible question that might possibly come our way in that meeting, and be on top of every single email, at every point of data, then they think that they're not qualified, which can look like this continual search for, “I need more qualifications.” “I need another certification.” “I need more letters after my name.” Because, “That is the only way that I'm going to feel empowered, and confident, to actually do my job.” 

Sabina Guest

That's right. Yeah, the shadow of feeling like you need to be “the expert.” And again, so many women say, “Oh, you know, I'm a chief financial officer, or I'm a chief marketing officer, but I don't have the qualifications.” And it's really been through lived experience. And, on further questioning, you ask about their experience, and change management that they've introduced through their organisations. 

They've got so much valuable lived experience that, frankly, a qualification is nothing in comparison. And yet, there is something about women in particular, and if you trace it back to childhood girls, it's that, “I'm going to be a good student.” “I'm going to do everything perfectly, get all the A's, get the ticks, get the gold stars.” “Well done, pat, pat.” 

Being a bit patronising, but we're groomed in that way through the education system. Boys, as well, are in that education system. But girls in particular thrive on ticking all the boxes, doing everything perfectly, and we are conditioned to believe that the pathway is to get qualifications, and be legitimate. 

And, in reality, Jo, that is not the world we're living in, right? The fact is, lots of roles nowadays didn't exist 10 years ago, or they're hybrid roles. The landscape is moving so fast that experts are developed on the go, not in the classroom, not at the whiteboard, not at university 20 years ago. It's now, in the moment, embracing the pace of change that is required. 

Jo Host

Yeah, and that's where we see, when there's this desperate need for more knowledge, it also stops implementation. So many women come to us on their discovery sessions, which is when they're thinking of working for us, working with us, and I go, “Oh, well, you know, I just need some more information.” And it's actually, “No, you don't need information!” “You need to start implementing!” 

But, there's a fear of implementing, because they feel like they need to know more information, before they can actually have the confidence to implement. And that's one of the things I love about what we do here, is we say, “Okay, here's some information that you may or may not already know.” “Now, go implement.” “And you're not going to get any more information, until you've actually done something.” So, that's one way that we have to really break this imposter trap and get people moving. 

Sabina Guest

Yeah, and that's the downside to gathering more data. Contemplating, researching, waiting to have input from somebody else. Inactivity causes anxiety, it causes doubt, and one of the things that is needed in the workplace nowadays, is speed of implementation, execution. And you are valued for being a quick decision maker. It is really important to be able to assess what's available in the moment, not to second guess, and make your best guesstimate. 

So, women generally like to receive and absorb. and nurture and contemplate, and percolate, and it has its place. And it also has a shadow where, at some point, you have to go, “I've got enough.” “I'm going to back myself.” “I'm going to back my decision and take action.” Taking action is the thing that is going to shift these doubts, that are swirling. 

Jo Host

Yeah, I heard a beautiful quote that aligns to some of this, I guess, all of these imposter pieces today. And that is, “What you are not changing, you are choosing.” So, if you are not actively trying to change something, then you are choosing that thing. Which can be a horrendous thought, to perhaps the woman who's listening, who has been thinking about getting more information about something, and is like, “Actually, you're choosing that.” 

So, if you want to change, you have to choose that difference, which brings us on to one of the very, very powerful pieces of “imposter” that we see, keeps people isolated. And I think, that is one of the beautiful things of what we do really well, is we avoid this type of “imposter”, and we kill it really quickly. 

And we call this one “The Soloist”. It’s that, “I can do it myself.” “I don't need any help.” “And if I do ask for help, then there is something wrong with me, because I should be able to do it all myself.” This is such a powerful imposter, isn't it, Sabina? It keeps so many women trapped in silence. 

Sabina Guest

Yeah, it's something that's very close to my heart. I had this role model to me, through my beautiful mum, who was a single mum. And I put her on a pedestal for years, because she did everything herself, and I thought it was amazing. And then, I couldn't hold myself up to that standard. And then, I started noticing, through my HR career, that I was just feeling more, and more overloaded, questioning myself more and more. 

And I had beautiful friends that would point out to me, “Hey, we're over here.” “Reach out when you're ready.” And I just had this toxic trait of thinking, “It's all on me.” “It's up to me.” “I need to figure it out.” “What are people going to think if I ask for help?” “Are they going to think I'm not capable?” “Are they going to think that I shouldn't be in the position that I'm in?” “Are they going to think that I'm not coping?” “Oh my gosh!” 

Like, the thoughts, the cacophony of thoughts that then play out in your behaviour, is crazy. It's crazy! When, in actual fact, I could have just asked myself a better question. Which is, “You know what?” “Do I need to feel more resourced here?” “Do I need to speak to someone?” “Do I need to find a mentor?” “Do I need to get a stakeholder involved?” “Do I need more skills?” 

But, just asking yourself more empowering questions instead of that, “Oh, it's just me.” And “I'm not getting this.” I just have to “effort” more. Solo-hyper-independence is not the way forward. That is the path to burnout. Self-doubt, self-criticism, is going nowhere good, really. 

Jo Host

Yeah, and I guess, just the last piece to stack on that, is also finding women who get you. So, you might have a support network of girlfriends that you can go for coffee with, and go have a wine with. Maybe you've got kids the same age. But often, they don't understand, perhaps, your “work persona”, or your ambition. 

So, it's also really important, because the advice they will give you if you say, “I'm so burnt out and overwhelmed.” “Why don't you go part-time?” Or “You should step back?” “Why do you have to work so hard?” “Why do you have to be so ambitious?” “Why don't you not go for that new job, or not go for that promotion?” And that's lovely advice, and they probably mean well, but they also don't get you. 

So, it is so important that you find your tribe of people who allow you to embrace all the parts of yourselves and not have to hide it. Which brings us to the last trait I guess you would say here, or the last type of imposter that we speak about a lot. 

We've done full workshops on this, and that's our dear old friend “the perfectionist”, which can rage in many women. I used to be a very proud perfectionist. It was part of my identity, along with being a “get stuff done person.” But, this is all about those crazy high goals. If you can't, it's all about being perfect. And then, if it's not perfect, there's huge amounts of beating yourself up. There's a lot of failure, and this ties into many of the others. 

So, “If I knew more, I would have got it right.” “If I didn't have to ask for help, I would have got it right.” “If only I had more information, or I was smarter, then it would have been perfect.” So, I guess a beautiful way to wrap all this up, Sabina, is these crazy goals. And let's not forget that not only do we almost make it impossible to reach those goals, the moment we come close to them, we move them anyway, don't we? 

Sabina Guest

That's right! Exactly. There is no perfect final destination, because then we're always going, “Okay, what's next?” “That wasn't enough.” “Onwards.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, “Onwards!” 

Jo Host

Yeah, yeah. So, I guess that's one of the final pieces that it's really important to share here. So, I guess the question for you, our lovely listeners, is “Which of those five do you feel resonates most?” Is there one that you say, “Aha! That's me.” Are you someone who really feels like you have to be “Superwoman”, and if you're not, then you're a failure? Are you someone who has to be naturally gifted, and it has to come easy as tricky, when things are hard? 

Do you feel this incessant need for more information? And, if you're not the expert in the room, then you're going to be found out? Do you have to do it all yourself? Are you not letting people in to support you? And then, are you holding that bar way too high as a perfectionist? 

So, a chance for you to say, “Am I all five of those?” “Is there a couple that resonate, and that can give you clues?” We've shared a lot in each of those around. What is the shadow side? How might this be playing out for you? And, perhaps, even some of these are playing out in ways that you hadn't even imagined. So, Sabina, such an important conversation to be having, isn't it? 

Sabina Guest

It is. It is so much so that there are many other aspects to this that we're passionate about, and we're going to record another podcast episode on that. And, as Jo said, we've got a two-part workshop that is going to have so much juicy content on this. So, I think this is a really important conversation for women to be having right now, at this stage. 

Jo Host

Yeah. And as we head into the end of 2024, you know, the pace is only speeding up. And the opportunities for women are there, if we can take them. We've got to stop self-selecting out, and this is our real chance to take all these opportunities that are in our future. 

So, Sabina, thank you for joining me today. Look forward to seeing you! The 15th of November is when you can come and join us for “The High Achiever Paradox.” We're talking about all things “imposter syndrome” and much, much more. So, Sabina, we'll see them there, won't we? 

Sabina Guest

Absolutely. Can't wait! 

OUTRO: Thanks for joining us today on the Balance and Beyond Podcast. We're so glad you carved out this time for yourself. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend who might need to hear this today. And if you're feeling extra generous, leaving us a review on your podcast platform of choice would mean the world. If you’re keen to dive deeper into our world, visit us at www.balanceinstitute.com to discover more about the toolkit that has helped thousands of women avoid burnout and create a life of balance, and beyond. Thanks again for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on the Balance & Beyond Podcast.