Balance & Beyond Podcast

Ever wondered how to navigate your way from a high-potential talent path, to the CEO's corner office?

Join us on the Balance and Beyond podcast, where we welcome Sally, an inspiring leader who opens up about her transformative journey. From embracing new roles to letting go of past knowledge, Sally shares the mindset shifts and tools that were crucial in her evolution. Through personal anecdotes and insightful reflections, you'll learn the characteristics that propelled her career and the significant changes that shaped her leadership style.

Authenticity and intuition are cornerstones of effective leadership, and Sally exemplifies these principles. She discusses how slowing down to embrace her true self unlocked greater wisdom and efficiency, and reflects on the challenges of balancing work and family life. Whether it's surviving crises or maintaining transparency, Sally's journey offers valuable lessons for aspiring leaders. Listen in to discover how she has empowered others and set a positive example, all while maintaining her humility and dedication to authenticity. Sally's path is a beacon for women striving for leadership roles, filled with moments that will leave you inspired and motivated.

Episode Transcript

INTRO: Welcome to Balance and Beyond, the podcast for ambitious women who refuse to accept burnout as the price of success. Here, we’re committed to empowering you with the tools and strategies you need to achieve true balance, where your career, relationships and health all thrive, and where you have the power to define success on your own terms. I honour the space you’ve created for yourself today, so take a breath, and let's dive right in…

Jo Host

We have a very special guest this episode. Welcome, Sally, to the Balance and Beyond Podcast. 

Sally Guest

Thank you, Jo, good to be here.

Jo Host

Yes, very excited to hear your story! It's been an interesting leadership journey and personal growth journey. And I'm sure we'll delve into that. But, before we begin, why don't you let everyone know a little bit about who you are, and what brings you here?

Sally Guest

Thank you. Well, I'm Sally. So, I'm a mum of two little boys. Crazy, but lovely boys, a wife of Matt, Mum of another fur boy, baby fur boy, and I'm a leader. So, I head up AHM Health Insurance.

Jo Host

Yeah, I love it. And it's been a journey to get there, hasn't it? Because, you and I met a very long time ago, which is quite scary, when you think how long we've been working together. But talk to us, a little bit, through your journey. It has been a very interesting one that I guess took quite a, I guess you'd say almost typical kind of “high potential talent path.” And, more recently, it has taken some more interesting twists and turns. So, why don't you give us a bit of a rundown of how you've become CEO?

Sally Guest

Yeah, so I think, I mean, I hit my career running out of uni. So ambitious, Jo. Ready  to, you know, take on the world. And I found myself working in call centres while I was at uni, and then I had all these opportunities that came about. So, I sort of stayed in them, and always kind of thought to myself, “Oh, I'll get a real job one day.” “I'll keep doing this until it's not fun.” And then I was running, I don't know, running a really big call centre in Sydney, very young, and I realised “Actually, I'm using my degree!” “Maybe this is a real job!” 

But yeah. I've had lots of … Maybe two things for me, is connection to the customer. So, what call centres gave me, was just the ability to, because you kind of have to listen to what's happening to the customer, and whether you're in outsourcing, or in an internal. Like, everyone wants to know, “What does the customer think about the new product?” And so, that has really driven my career. 

So, I ran lots of call centres. But then, customer service strategies for organisations. So the customer, and then people, are my sort of passion. So, I joke that I learned how to lead people, before I learned business. Because, there's just people in call centres, and you've got to lead them, and help them be great, and get better, and they're sort of your business. 

So, I learned how to lead people. At one point, I had a lot of people. I think my biggest role had about 15,000 staff across, you know, a lot of three countries, and a lot of contact centre staff. So leading big teams and operational teams to do better for customers is sort of what I love, yeah.

Jo Host

Yeah, but while obviously still leading teams, you managed to work your way up the ladder. What do you think were some of the characteristics that helped you get there?

Sally Guest

I think, earlier, it was almost like this pace to get to a senior level was a normal thing. Like, delivering results. And, you know, yeah, I was always going to succeed. I was always going to do what the business asked for me in those roles, and get those results, and I think that got me to a level. And then the piece that got me to the next level, I think, was very different. 

So, I was used to kind of seeing leadership as the boss, not in a hierarchical way where I wanted to be the boss. But, as the boss you've got to have the answers, um, you've got to have the plan, you've got to kick off the work you've got. You know it's you, you, you.

And that's, well, there's a lot of responsibilities. Have work, man, when you can just do everything, um, and that is definitely what got me to a certain pace. But almost letting go of is definitely what got me to a certain pace, but almost letting go of that was what got me to the next level.

And so when I let that go, with your help Jo, and realised that actually, “You know my role is, yes, to inspire, and to role model great leadership, but it's also really what is also right for them, for that person, and for the team.” Is it to ask the right question? Is it to get out of their way? Is it to get something else out of their way, like, yeah, very different from me. You know, with everyone behind me, I actually now kind of feel like it's the other way around. I'm just sort of helping, keeping everybody up and, you know, making sure the team has what they need. Which is very, very different.

Jo Host

Yeah, it’s a very big shift. And, as you said, requires you to let go of almost everything that you knew, to find this other way of being. I know this is sort of a, “How many years do you have?” Kind of a question. But, what do you think? What do you think was some of, either the tools or the mindset shifts, that allowed you to let go, and to step into this completely different way of operating?

Sally Guest

Yeah. I think one of the first things was to believe in me. It's almost like I had to really truly believe that. So, I always believed, “Yeah, I can do this” and “I'm just going to grind at it until I do it.” But, actually, I probably didn't really believe in me, if that makes sense. Like, I feel like all around the outside I just got here through a bit of luck and right timing. You know, I had, “It wasn't me” in my head. 

So, I really did have to find a true belief in me. But, what that gave me was, you know, it just gives you the confidence that you don't have to be always “doing the doing.” You don't have to prove yourself all the time. So all that sort of stuff just started to go away, because “I know that I can do this” and don't have to say yes to every single thing to show you that I'm doing it, “Blah, Blah, Blah.” 

So, that piece was the first thing. And, again, you helped me with that. So, once there was that, and then I think there was this shift into this, because I believed in that. It's not that I had an ego. Because, I've always been, I think I've always been a humble leader, coming from a call centre background, and people leadership. But, ego connected to what other people thought of me in the job, and that belief in me, that kind of stuff that started to go away. 

And then, that is really liberating. Because then it's like, “Well, what do I want?” And, actually, this job over here might not look like the best job on paper, on LinkedIn, to all these people I'm trying to impress. But, who cares? Because that's what I want to do, and I'm learning, you know, and that is just so liberating. And I think, with that, then you're able to be more vulnerable, more you. And then, that just opens up everything.

Jo Host

Interesting. You talk about becoming “more you” and letting go of things. There's been so many shifts that you've made, like you said, complete identity shifts there. What role has intuition played for you, in making some of these shifts? Like you said, when you're not worried about proving yourself, when you're not worried about what everyone else thinks, there's a lot more headspace that opens up. What is it that was allowed to come in, instead?

Sally Guest

Yeah. I think, because I feel like I've always had intuition but never really trusted it, or even knew it was there. Like, you know, I remember earlier on in my career, I would always just have this feeling, you know, “I've actually just got to go” and “Something doesn't feel right over there.” “I'm just gonna go and dig in a little bit.” And there's always something there. I don’t know. I just kind of thought, “Oh, that's not my operational area.” “But, actually, I think that was probably my intuition telling me things.” 

But, I think, the more you trust it, cause you’ve got these sorts of things. But, you have to. That has opened up a lot for me. So, whether that be what is right for me in my career, and the next role, like really, really thinking that through. And that's, you know, that's been really tricky. There's been opportunities where I would have thought they were totally for me, and it's ticking off all those old things that I used to really care about. 

But, they actually aren't right for me. And it's really  a hard one, because when you trust your intuition, it's so different from what you're used to doing. Very freaky. But that has opened up, just confidence in what is right for me, and knowing what's right for me. And that's pretty incredible! 

But in the work, I think, when you trust your gut and your intuition, you know you might ask a few more questions to get alignment in your team, which uncovers the unlock what you needed to unlock. And, you might not have done that, and you might not have actually had alignment, or got the right idea.

Jo Host

Yeah, so I feel like that, and you kind of need to slow down a little bit to be able to feel, and listen to that. Which can be very hard, when you're a fast person who can think faster than most and can, as you said, grind as good as anybody. So, it's never slowing down. To actually speed up is one of those, you know, fridge magnets that we've seen for years but actually is really hard to do, isn't it?

Sally Guest

Totally. And, I mean, people would have always said that to me. And I'd be like, “Yeah, I'm with you.” “Let's slow down to speed up.” And I have no idea what that means. But I believe that now, for me, it's not the “slowing down to speed up.” I mean, yes, due diligence, data after you've got that, it’s very important. But, it's the “slowing down to feel”, and sense what you know, and actually listen to your gut. If that's right, then speed up, and I think that is it for me.

Jo Host

Yeah. Yeah, and it's beautiful! It's a beautiful skill you've unlocked, and we've really seen your career flourish since you've tapped into that. You know, an extra source of wisdom, along with your intellect, and your confidence, and your ability to manage people. And all of those things. Speaking of intellect, speed, and ability to manage people, you've survived your fair share of crises over the course of your career. 

We all deal with uncertainty, and change, and crises, and feel like, you know, the world is falling apart. Looking back at some of them, and you've had some big ones that people wouldn't know about. What, would you say, you've learned from going through those periods of time?

Sally Guest

Yeah. I think I've learned a lot about true leadership, in those moments. So, true leadership. And then, probably about me. So, if I start with leadership and, you know, that medibank cyber incident was a big one for me. Like the visibility of leadership and transparency. So, those two things are so critical for us. So like, every day, I met with my whole company, to talk about what we knew, and what we needed from them. 

And so, seeing me every day, you know, and not that I'm the most important person, but there is a security in that. “Here's our leader.” “She's with us in this, and she's telling me what she can tell.” And I think I have taken those things in terms of, not as extremes. Because that, you know, there are extreme times, but those two things are so key. And I keep pushing all that. 

Now, I call it radical transparency with my team. Like, the more we tell people, the more they can do with it, and the more they can make those decisions. And so, those two things are critical, I think. So, at the core of my leadership, I just really care. I care about our customers, I care about our people deeply, and that is a good thing. And it might feel to me, in a minute, that it might have gotten a bit much. 

But, making sure that you do care in those moments is important, because we're people. And, you know, some of these situations are yuck. They're gross, you know. You feel like you're in a TV show. You know, the things you're talking about, you never thought you would have to talk about in your career. And so, caring for people through that is really, really important. Rallying people is also important. People want to help as well. 

So, how do you rally people to help you do what you need to do? And then, storytelling. So, what we were told was like, there were obviously lots of facts we had to tell, and things that had to get out. But then, we would find glimmers of hope, you know, customers saying great things to us. And that would just sort of keep us going. 

So, I think storytelling in times of crisis is just so, so critical. Because, you want hope in those moments. It's going to end, or it's okay, and we're seeing that, yeah. So, that storytelling was really critical. But, then I've learned a lot about myself. So, I think learning about like, the care factor, like that can just dial that up way too much, and just keep caring, and keep caring, but then, you know, what is the toll on me? And actually, you can get a bit lost in that.

So, being able to set the right level of boundaries, you know, “This is a moment in time.” “This is work.” It's not everything. And how do you create those boundaries, to look after yourself? But, I think, when you come out of a crisis, you've learned a lot. Like, I learned so much about myself, what I can do, you know, what I can rally. And, I think it's really important, when you do come out of those times to stop really grounding in what you've learned about you, good and bad. 

I mean, that care thing was a big one for me, that I probably didn't look after myself, and it went way too far. Caring for everybody else, it's a lovely thing. Like, I'm not shaming myself for it. But, I needed better boundaries, and I put them in, but also like what you can do, as a team.

Like the other thing that I took out of lots of these crises, but certainly that last one, is we had one focus. And that was to keep like, “Let us get our customers through this period of time.” That was it. And so, there's something so amazing, when you have a single focus. Everyone knows what to do, you don't have to tell everyone. Everyone just gets it. 

And people can be more autonomous, and make more decisions. So, a little bit about myself, that's taken into my leadership now. Like, we just try and do less, and we're just so clear on what you know, what the big thing we're trying to do is, and then we just empower people to make great decisions around that. So there's, “Yeah, I could keep going forever.” Particularly that last one, because it was a big one.

Jo Host

But, hopefully that's helped. And I think, you know, we've all been in organisations that have 27 number one priorities. And that can be, you know, be dangerous. But, I guess, your comment about caring is, you know, there's a dark side to everything. So, anything on the surface. For example, you know you've got a huge heart. Like you said, you care deeply, and it's legitimate. It's at the core of your being. 

But, we take anything too far, and it's not good for anyone. So these crises, all these challenging times, always get to show us, “What's the shadow in us?” Even too much confidence can be a bad thing, if not used in moderation. 

Sally Guest

Yeah, I agree, good learning to have had. 

Jo Host

Yep and, you know, we spoke about that. At the right time, in terms of, you know, you were getting, let's just say, an expedited experience of all kinds of things in a very short time period. Anything done in a short time period can be painful, sometimes. But, I love the way you know you held yourself, and your team through it. And it really came out, and went into almost this deep period of reflection afterwards. Which is, as you say, a really important piece not to skip over, and go right next to. But, that's part of that slowing down.

Sally Guest

That's right.

Jo Host

Yeah, exactly, you mentioned, you know, sort of authenticity and transparency. How important is it for you to also be a role model of bringing your full self to work in terms of being a CEO with young kids and leaving for pickups and not hiding some of that, because there aren't that many CEOs that are in your phase of life with you know little kids. Often they either didn't have children, or have older ones. How important is that to you?

Sally Guest

Oh yeah. It's so important, Jo. So, for such a big part of my career, you know, I put on my work coat, my professional coat at work and, you know, pretended to be someone so different to who I was at work. And, you know, I hid the things that I was, and the things that I needed. 

And my first moment of this, I was coming back from when I worked at Telstra, and I was on the exec team. I was coming back from having my first baby, and I was getting ready for my, you know, returning, and I was like, “I'm going to be part-time for just a little bit, while I figure this out.” “How do I hide that?” That was my first thought. And then, “How do I hide that I've got a baby?” 

And then, as that thought came into my mind, I was like. “What?” “Okay, something has to change, because that doesn't feel right.” And I remember, just thinking, “What if I don't don't hide that I'm part-time?” And almost went back to work experimenting a little bit with that. 

So, I went back part-time, and I remember saying to my boss, “Oh, you're gonna have to move the leadership team meeting, because I don't work on Mondays.” You know, probably that way of timidly saying it. But I still said it. And, you know, you kind of experiment, and you tiptoe in. And he was like, “Yeah, of course, of course we'll do that.”

And so, the more I did that, the more I sort of started to think, “Actually, this is really cool.” And I could see that I had no role models like that. And I just thought, “Well, what about all these people?” I tell you, it's a very big place, with lots of women who aren't on the exec team and probably want to be like, “How do I just maybe show them that there is a way there?” 

That was probably my first step into it. But, it's critical. So, there's the role-modelling bit. Because you cannot be what you can't see. I know that is said a lot. But, it's so true. And not everyone has it in them, or wants to be that trailblazer, to pave a path for others. And so, you know that you need to be able to see people around you that you can resonate with, and be inspired by, that are like you.

But I think this other bit is, the more you turn up as you, the better you are. You're better at everything because, yeah, no one is better at you, than you! And so, the other piece that I had, the more I turned up as me, and wasn't ashamed that sometimes I feel like I speak like I'm 23. I still get excited, and I say “Ace!” And all these things. Like, the more I turned up as me, and just didn't care about that, good things kept happening. 

You know, like, you have to connect better, because you get better outcomes, you have more authentic conversations. And I think that kind of fueled me to think, “Actually?” “This is actually probably a better way than all that effort to be somebody else.” Or, what I thought I had to be, or you know, what that was. Yeah so, I think two things are, it's so important to me to be a good role model. Because, I just really like leading people, and want to be that person for someone else, that might just see something in me that inspires them. But I think, selfishly, it's better for me as well. Well, everybody wins, right?

Jo Host

That's right, yes. And there are so few role models who do that, who are authentic. There are a lot of women and many of them come to us, our community, that way. And then they leave, hopefully being more like you in terms of having to hide their children, or not talk about work, or think they're going to be judged for it. That's such an important part and, as you said, you don't always have to wear the trailblazer hat. But, there is something to be said for showing up as authentically you.

Sally Guest

Yes, yeah, 100%. And even like, when you get that belief, like I believe that I'm good at my job and I deserve to be here, all that good stuff. But I really fundamentally believe now, and you turn up as you, if you've got something to say, you're not, you've been not afraid to say it, and I think that's the key. Like you know before in your head you're kind of like I've got something to say. Should I say it now? Should I say it now?

No, it's like you know you don't say it, and then the moment passes and it's gone and you beat yourself up over it, all that sort of stuff. But now, if you, when I find that I say it because there's no one else, I'm the only me in the room who sees it like I do. And so, I've got a job. It’s for me to say it. And I expect everyone else to kind of say their bit, too. 

But, when you say that stuff, yeah. It helps. And I think it helps because you're turning up as you. And I mean, you could go right into all the diversity and the science behind that. But, you've got to say it, because there's no other you there who can say it like you! 

Jo Host

Yeah, absolutely. And then, thinking about being more you. How has this shifted? How do you show up at home for your famil?y Because, you are more “you” at work. I presume that means, you know, it's not as daunting to be anybody else. So, you've got more energy left for your, you know, energetic boys.

Sally Guest

At the end of the day, yeah, 100%. And I think, at the very start of this kind of journey with you on leadership, in this different way. You know, I worked all the hours under the sun because, you know, I had to prove myself. So, I had to prepare for an hour before this meeting, and before this presentation. And I don't have to do any of that anymore! Not to say I'm not prepared, but it's not that over-preparation from coming from a different place. 

And so, I have time. Like, you know, I have time to take my kids to school, and drop them off. I do that three days a week, and I'm not rushing to work. So I get to just be with them, and enjoy it. You know,  I'm present. I don't have all the ticking in my head about, “What's happening next?” “What are you doing?” And quickly send that email, while you're pretending to be with them. 

I'm just present when I'm with them, and that's better. That's way more fun. They're only little, for a little time. So, you know, being present means it feels longer, hopefully, and iIt's much more joyful, yeah, when you can be present with them.

Jo Host

Yeah, which is funny. Because, I don't know if I think back to when we first met, and you were living in Dubai at the time. If I'd have said, “This is the role that you're going to have in a company as high profile as this, and you'll be dropping your kids off, and picking them up, and working these hours.” I think you would have called me a lunatic, uh-huh.

Sally Guest

In my head I would have been like, “That's for somebody else, Jo, not for me.” “Me?” “I have to work really hard.” “I have to work all the hours.”

Jo Host

Yeah, you would have definitely laughed at me, yeah. But, you know, you've worked out how to do things in an ultimately more efficient way. Right, the most efficient way is to be you, to speak your truth, to lead authentically, to give everyone else permission to do the same. And that's how you've been able to get such amazing results, and do such amazing things, and still be a living, breathing human that, you know, has a soul.

Sally Guest

Yeah, it feels pretty good, to be honest! Just to turn up as you.

Jo Host

Yeah, absolutely. And one last question for you. What advice would you give to anyone who is listening to this? Very much aligned to how you used to be. Working those hours, pushing, and proving themselves. What would you say?

Sally Guest

I think I would say, like, “Find a way to really believe in you.” Like, really really believe in you. And well, you prescribed me a “50-stack”, I think you called it. So, finding your, you know, 50 reasons why you're good at this. And I feel like finding that belief, that no one else is going to give it to you, they might tell you some things that you can add to your 50-Stack.  

But, I think you really have to start with that. Like, it has to start with you really believing it. Because, no one else is going to give you that self-belief. So, spend some time there and then, I think. Once you have that, people see, and feel, and experience you differently. So, yeah, very simple, but pretty hard. But I think, start there, yeah.

Jo Host

I love it! Do a 50-Stack, until it’s like, “Yeah, that's been about two years of work.”

Sally Guest

“Do a 50-Stack.” It took me three years.

Jo Host

Yes well, you know, I honour the way that you have thrown yourself into this work. You know, you came in, and you did our initial program, and then have been one of our founding members of our beautiful community, and just continue to go from strength to strength.

So, I love the role model that you set for everyone. I love the way you're a very humble leader. I remember someone met you on a retreat and came up to me afterwards, and said “Did you know Sally's a CEO?” I said “Yes.” She said, “And a company I've actually heard of!” “Yeah.” She said, “You wouldn't know it.” I said “Well, that just goes to show your judgement of what you think CEOs have to be!”

So, on behalf of every woman out there, thank you for paving a path, and for being what we want to see hundreds of more women do. Leading authentically, and getting to the top of companies, and making a difference in the world. You are.

Sally Guest

Thank you, Jo, and thank you for everything.

Jo Host

Thanks for coming!

OUTRO: Thank you for joining us today on the Balance and Beyond Podcast. We're so glad you carved out this time for yourself. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend who might need to hear this today. And if you're feeling extra generous, leaving us a review on your podcast platform of choice would mean the world. If you’re keen to dive deeper into our world, visit us at www.balanceinstitute.com to discover more about the toolkit that has helped thousands of women avoid burnout and create a life of balance, and beyond. Thanks again for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on the Balance & Beyond Podcast.