Balance & Beyond Podcast

Can you really be a senior executive, and have a family?

Is it really possible to move away from being a doer and actually become the strategic leader you know you’re capable of? In this episode, we discover the transformative journey of Karen Skinner, an executive leader from Wellington, New Zealand.

Learn how Karen navigates organisational complexity, embraces uncertainty, and has effectively shifted her mindset from being a "doer" to a strategic thinker. Karen reveals the significance of seeking mentorship and addressing emotional constraints and ingrained beliefs to facilitate this transition. She also provides valuable insights into the positive impacts of leadership programs and personal development retreats on her career and personal growth.

Karen's story also emphasises the profound changes that come with prioritising personal development over professional achievements. Experience the emotional resilience and improved communication skills she gained, which helped her make the bold decision to leave a secure executive role to focus on family and self-growth. 

We discuss how intuition plays a crucial role in strategic leadership and how creating much-needed space can enhance decision-making and stakeholder management. Tune in for practical advice on balancing professional aspirations with personal well-being and unlocking your true potential.

While you’re being inspired by Karen’s journey, start your own by joining our next free Mastering Time Masterclass on Friday 23rd August. If you’re ready to unlock the best time management strategies to boost productivity, enhance focus and stop procrastination in 2024 register at www.balanceinstitute.com/time

Episode Transcript

INTRO: Welcome to Balance and Beyond, the podcast for ambitious women who refuse to accept burnout as the price of success. Here, we’re committed to empowering you with the tools and strategies you need to achieve true balance, where your career, relationships and health all thrive, and where you have the power to define success on your own terms. I honour the space you’ve created for yourself today, so take a breath, and let's dive right in…

Before we jump into today's episode, a quick reminder about our free Mastering Time Masterclass, which is on Friday, the 23rd of August. I'm going to be sharing with you the best time management strategies to boost productivity, enhance focus and stop procrastination in 2024. So if you were trapped in a cycle of busyness, if you're always feeling behind and it's never enough, then come and join us for this amazing free hour where I'm going to be sharing all my strategies. Visit balanceinstitute.com/time to register for free and I'll see you there. Let's get back to the episode. 

Jo Host

Welcome, Karen, to the Balance and Beyond podcast. I've got a very special guest with me today. Hi, Karen. 

Karen Guest

Hi, good morning.

Jo Host

Good morning. Well, before we kick off, I've got some very interesting questions for you and we'll see where this interview goes, but we'd love to hear a little bit about you. Obviously, I guess the hint of a Kiwi accent there. 

Karen Guest

That's right. Yeah, so I'm Karen Skinner, I live in Wellington in New Zealand, Porirua, and I am a mum to a nine-year-old boy and, yeah, I’ve had a really interesting career journey. Not a straight line, lots of different directions. But I guess the big themes in my career have really been around sort of stakeholder engagement, and strategy, and more recently, into executive leadership. Yeah, that's me. 

Jo Host

Yeah, it's been a journey. Well, I love talking about leadership, and growth, and all the lessons that we've learned from that. So, I would love, like I said, we'll see where this goes. But what does leadership mean to you? I know you said you've sort of recently stepped up into executive, and it’s been an interesting ride. What have you learned over the last couple of years, or what does it now mean to you? As you said, you've been very reflective lately. 

Karen Guest

Yeah, so I guess it means a lot of things to different people. For me, a big part of my kind of leadership journey has been stepping into a more sort of strategic leadership role. So, really, working in environments where there's quite a lot of change, and quite a lot of complexity. In particular, in this external environment, and being able to help teams, and organizations, really navigate through a lot of that complexity, when there's a lot of uncertainty. 

But, you still want to get a sense that you are sort of achieving things, and driving towards, you know, goals. Even then, that won't always be, you know, very clear, or very straightforward, to get there. So, I think that's really been this big development for me, over the last sort of few years. I think earlier in my career I was, you know, still had some strategic leadership. It was a bit more technical, so the path was a little bit clearer, and I just needed to deliver on those kinds of projects. But, the development for me, has been more into that sort of strategic, you know, complexity space, which is interesting. 

Jo Host

It is. And what do you feel helped you get there? Because that's the feedback a lot of women get is that they're too in the detail or they're too much of a subject matter expert and they can't step into that uncertainty. What were some of the things you'd call tools, or developments, or shifts in you that allowed that to happen? 

Karen Guest

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a degree that there's no choice in it. Really, if you want to kind of expand in your leadership, most organizations are now dealing with reasonable complexity. Both, you know, internal complexity, you know around change programs, or external environments, and so for me there was a degree of just saying, “Okay, that is what leadership in most organisation looks like, and so, I want to step into that space.” 

You know, having lots of people around me who are strategic and help me develop, and having those conversations and you know you can often have the, you know the person who is your boss or who's around you. But also seeking out other people, I've always had lots of, you know, a wide kind of network of you know you could call them mentors, peers, others.

And then, I think over the course of the last year, obviously I've been doing various parts of your program. And I think, you know, working through what are some kind of ingrained beliefs, or kind of what I would call emotional constraints, that makes you want to look like you're busy. Be the doer, you know, not take the risk of delegation. 

So, working through all of those, I think, has also been huge for me. And really seeing this sort of strategic advice, and leadership as the real value that you bring, as opposed to just the amount of work you churn through all the doing and really I guess shifting my identity to see myself as a strategic leader that brings kind of big you know good sort of strategic and you know political strategy kind of advice through has been a big part of it as well.

Jo Host

Yeah, we often talk about that get shit done-ness and I think that was probably your language when we first found each other. As you said, stuck in the doing, stuck in the weeds. It's been a really interesting transformation. I'd love it if you'd be happy to share, because so many women who are listening to this podcast, obviously those that are in our world know how we do this.

But how would you describe that journey to shift some of that emotional baggage and shift your identity? Because it's something that is bandied around, but it's very hard, obviously, without coming to say, “Join our programs.” That's a very easy solution. and Karen's also been to. Karen's been to two retreats as well in-person retreats and is booked in to come to a US retreat soon.

So, there'll be three retreats within 12 months. So we're obviously doing something right that she keeps coming back and she's in our backend programs and she's been there for a while. So you know she's invested heavily in yourself as well, which I think is a part of this right of you saying okay, I can't shift this identity myself. 

Karen Guest

Yeah, absolutely. And so, when I came into the program I had, you know, about a year or so, where I'd been getting sick quite a lot. And so, that was my big drive. It was just feeling like I kept getting sick. That was my big drive. It was just feeling like I kept getting sick. And then, when I came back from being sick, I had this kind of accumulation of work for me. And this feeling like, “Oh, because I've been away, I have to work twice as hard.”

And then, of course, it was kind of in this cycle and feeling like my son and my family really probably paid the price the most, that even when I was there, I was either exhausted, or I had in my head everything from work. And so, I was present. But, I wasn't really. And so, I kind of knew. I knew I was enjoying work, and I was achieving things. But, I wasn't living life in the way that I guess I wanted to, and I was going to be seconded into an executive role, and I kind of knew that would be more pressure, more responsibility.

You know, I wanted that challenge, but I also knew I couldn't just sort of step up to that, without something changing. And so, that's when I started the eight-week program, which became 10 weeks. Because, of course, I got sick in the middle of it. I think you can often do courses that are sort of like this leadership tool. So, if you're in this meeting, you know you do it in this way, or whatever.

But, I think the difference was really kind of, I guess, looking inwards, and looking at the kind of different layers and and you know what I thought was great and what I wanted to keep on to and what was kind of holding me back and making me construct my life in a way that I didn't think was quite right for me.

And that's where I think the in-person retreats come in, which is why I keep signing up to them. You just get to a depth, you're really held in an environment with a whole lot of other women who are working through things in the same way, and with you and Jaclyn really holding space for you to kind of, really, in a safe way, say okay, you know what are the beliefs that I've accumulated in my life, what are the tools that I need to be able to kind of manage those?

And I think, the biggest thing for me, the biggest initial shift, was I would let things emotionally get to me, and that was what was kind of draining me, and exhausting me. I couldn't let things go. So, if something was, if a situation or a person, or something was frustrating me. I really took it on, and I kind of really fought you know, fought environments a lot more, and that's what was exhausting me.

Like, even when I could manage my hours. It was the kind of emotional stuff that I was taking on, and I think that was around, you know, wanting to make sure that everything was done really well, and like my image, and you know all of that stuff. So, there were a lot of ways to not take on that emotional baggage? And once you've released a lot of that, and you're calmer with that, then you can start being a lot more strategic, because you've got a lot more headspace, you've got a lot more energy.

And so that, I think, has been a big transition for me, because I'm in a role that does change the ability to say, “Okay, here's what needs to change.” But, that doesn't mean I need to fight the current environment, it doesn't mean I need to feel like I'm constantly in battle, even though I can identify that we are going to need to do something differently. Or, the way something's working needs to be done differently. So, I think that's what's kind of created the space really for me to start to step into that more strategic kind of leadership role. So, yeah, it's been a journey. And it's, you know, obviously I'm still on it.

Jo Host

It's a beautiful explanation of it because, as you said, very often at work, the tasks themselves aren't that difficult. It's the meaning we make of it, and the proving ourselves, and the emotion that's behind it. Like you said, the battle, and the war, and the politics, and “That's not fair” and “What are they going to think of me?” And “I made a mistake.” And it's all of that gump that goes around it that causes, as you said, the suffering, the sickness, the exhaustion. And it's very easy to get stuck in this sort of spin of continuing to think about it, to continue ruminating on it. So, there's such freedom, isn't there? When you unlock that headspace, so much more becomes available.

Karen Guest

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I remember one of the things I'd often do, which I know, talking to others. Others do as well. You know, if you kind of had the guts to speak up in a meeting, you'd speak up, but then you'd spend the next couple of hours going, “Oh, did I say too much?” “How did that come across?” “Did they understand?” “What did they think of me?”

And like, when can you walk out of a meeting, and just go on to your next thing, without all of that kind of emotional energy. You just do show up differently, I think, and you have more space. So, for me, it was yeah, firstly, just managing my emotional energy better, and creating that space, because there is you. We have all these little voices.

Jo Host

We've all got voices. I know, I know. And how have things shifted at home over the last little while, now that you know you've made some big decisions lately. I guess, you know, how have you seen this impact of extra emotional energy, extra space, you've freed up at work? I'm guessing you probably haven't been this sick.

Karen Guest

I know you've been sick lately, but haven't been this sick as much over the last year. So, have you seen those direct shifts? Yeah, I think so. And the interesting thing is, my partner's been completely supportive of me doing retreats, and continuing the program. Because, I think he's seen probably the shift more than anyone. And what I think he'd say is just, “There's things that I've been able to kind of handle that have happened.”

That, you know, even when they are frustrating or upsetting or whatever they're just nothing near how I would have managed it. I can be just, yeah, less emotionally drained from it. I can analyze it, I can kind of navigate through it and, yeah, and so that's been. I think the biggest thing has been him kind of seeing that, and I think in our relationship I've been able to learn to articulate things a lot more, and explain them without bringing as much emotional kind of stress to it, and that's really helped our communication.

I remember the first retreat I went to. I came, you know, without knowing I had these work things I wanted to deal with. And of course, you know, you just go where you need to go. But, it became a lot more about me personally, not just at work as well. So, I think it's helped. It helped the relationship. And I think, you know, and in the program you kind of do time audits, and make sure you're carving out where you want time, but it's more kind of headspace and energy, than just time, and really making the most of the time that you've got.

And so, yeah, that's been important. And when you see your value as bringing that sort of strategic leadership, that stops kind of defining yourself as ours. And so, if you want to prove yourself, you don't just do 60 or 70 hours. You actually bring more, more strategy, and more analysis, and that's not just about hours. It's not to say I don't work hard, but we haven't been working hard. But, it's different. It's different from what you think you're bringing to the workplace.

Jo Host

I think, yeah, a complete 180 mindset shift. Speaking of the future, you've made some big decisions lately. How have you, I guess, how would you love for you to share what some of those decisions are, and how you have coped? Most women who come into our world tend to go against the grain in terms of what we want out of life. How have you coped with any, and have you had any perceived judgment of yourself, or others about what your plans are?

Karen Guest

Yeah. So, I made the decision just over a month ago to leave my job, without another job to go to, and plan to sort of take a break. And a few things led to that. One of the big ones was, as I said, I've got a nine-year-old son. And I can kind of see that he's shifting from being sort of a child that needs me, to kind of heading into a sort-of teenage hood. And, you know, his friends are becoming more important, he's becoming more independent. And, I thought, “Oh, there's this window here, where he still kind of wants to hang out with Mum.” And even though I, you know, feel like I've been carving out a really good time with him, I wanted to spend more time with him, while I've got this kind of window.

And I also know that I still over-weigh my significance, in terms of work. Even though I've done a lot of work on it, I still get a lot of my kind of, you know, human need of significance, or importance, or status, or all of that from work. And I've been doing work on that. And I feel like I've got more balance. But, I'm like, “Actually? I'm going to throw myself into that discomfort of not having work, and really building my sense of sort of importance and significance, elsewhere.” And then, when I want to go back into the workplace, you know that will fit in with the rest of me, as opposed to the rest of me trying to fit in with work.

So, yeah, I made that decision about kind of five or so weeks ago. Walking away from a sort of a good executive role, when you know, almost every week there's articles about how terrible the employment market is here, and lots of people are losing their jobs. You know, in Wellington across the public sector, and so I think “brave” was the word people used the most. Which I really wasn’t. I hadn't seen it. I’ve just seen it as a very personal decision, and I hadn't really seen it as a kind of a leadership action.

But, actually, it's created some really interesting conversations with people about prioritizing your family, prioritizing what you want to do outside of work, you know, not being chained to a job for your identity, you know. And so, yeah, so it's been really interesting the kind of depth of conversation I've had with people at work.

You know, lots of mums are talking about their journey of being a parent, and a worker has been really interesting and I think there's been a few wobbles. I have to not read the articles that say, “No one can get jobs” and kind of be like, “Oh, you know, in six months or so, am I going to look back?” But, yeah, so there's a few moments where I'm like having to be quite intentional about just trusting what will come, and trusting this decision. Yeah so, it's been an interesting one.

Jo Host

And, I think, it’s a really beautiful opportunity. I love the way you said you know this is your chance to build your significance in a different way, and to go against the grain. It does take a lot of courage to not listen to the fear that's out there about, “Oh, what if?” And to really back yourself, and I love that! Whenever it is time to go back, whenever that is for you. You've got a whole, now, different perspective on your skill set, and what you bring.

So, I presume, it is very typical around here, the role that you go for will be very different than maybe what you would have been gone for a couple of years ago. And you don't feel that just because you've had six months out, or however long it ends up being, you don’t have to justify your break. I love that! It was a really intentional one.

You know, we see so many women hit the button of, “I can't cope, I can't cope!” I'm going to take a break, and it's done from a place of fear, as opposed to yours. It is such a beautiful, empowered conscious choice. Like, “No, this is what I'm choosing.” “I could work.” “If it's not that, I can't work.” “But now I choose something else.”

Karen Guest

Yeah, yeah. And it was about, I mean ,it was probably a three month decision making process for me. But, once I'd made the decision, then, yeah, the sense of opportunity really came over me. And there's so many things that I want to be doing, and I want to be working on that. When you sort of create that space, then your mindset goes to, “Okay, what can I fill it with?” Obviously, I've got going to the US retreat, and lots of things with the family, and some travel, and all these other things.

So I mean, obviously, it's a privileged position. I think it is probably a little bit my style to go into an organization for, you know, three, four, five years, sort-of take it through a period of time, and then take a break. And you know, part of the fear was like, “Oh, maybe it'll look bad on my CV, that I've only been there three and a half years, and I'm bouncing around too much.”

And then I was like, “Actually, no.” “That probably is me.” “Like, that is my CV.” You know, I'm not going to stay in an organization for 15 years doing the same thing. I'm going to kind of come in at a time when there's some complexity, and help lead them through it. So, I think, also just accepting that that is me, and maybe it's not the norm or not, the safest or whatever word you want to use, but that's how I have impact.

Jo Host

Yeah, but that's beautiful, because what that's such a great demonstration of is you know yourself, and you know your worth, and you're not worried about what other people think. Whereas, the person who's worried about their CV is worried about what other people think. Whereas you're like, “Nah, own it.” “This is who I am.” “This is how I work best.” “I'm not going to be your next 15 year employee.” “That's not what I'm here for.”

You know, I always say that there are different types of people. I was like you. I've gone into an organization, and I love the change. I love shaking it up. I loved breaking it apart, and putting it back together. But, once it was humming again, I'm like, “I'm kind of bored.” “I need another challenge, I'm off!” And I remember saying that to one of my CEOs. I'm not your BAU person. But there's such, almost respect, that you gain from recognizing your skill set, and recognizing and owning, “This is what I'm really good at”, and being able to step into that, is really powerful.

Karen Guest

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I was looking at where the organization was going. And, you know, there's some more challenges coming up, and feeling myself that I was kind of leaning in, in the way that I would have normally. So, kind of recognising I can't bring what I want to be bringing to step back for a while as well. Because, I think, as you say, often you end up right in the heat of it, and feeling burnt out, as opposed to what's going to come.

And “What do I need to have to really thrive?” And “What's coming?” And recognising early that, you know, that that was a period in time where it made sense for them to get a new person into the role, before the next phase comes as well. And so, for me, I said, “I didn't see it as leadership.” But then afterwards, I was like, “Oh yeah, there was some leadership in there.” You know?

Jo Host

Yeah, absolutely. And one thing we talk a lot about in our world is “intuition.” And you said, you know, this was not an easy decision to make. How have you really, and I know this kind of comes in with the strategic piece, how have you found your intuition has shifted, or maybe opened up, or got access to, as you've dealt with the emotional baggage, and got more of that headspace? How's that worked for you?

Karen Guest

Oh, I think hugely. And I think being able to balance, I guess kind of, you know, data points or information with your tuition is really, you know, understanding those both have strength. I think it is a huge part of leadership. And people often say to me, “How do you know that?” Like, when I'm saying, “Okay, I think this might happen, or things might go here.” This is how this might play out, they're like, “How do you know?” And I'm kind of, “Oh, I just kind of know, you know?” And it's because I can take a whole lot of data points, add it with my intuition, and kind of think about where things might go.

I guess that's the sort of “strategic” part of “strategic leadership.” And I think just trusting that. I think, earlier, I would have thought it. Like, I knew I had it there. But, I wouldn't have articulated it as much, I wouldn't have talked to others about it. Because, it's hard to explain. You can't just say, “Okay, well, this is, you know, this is 86%.” “This data point, or whatever.” So yeah. 

So, I think that has definitely kind of strengthened, and I've been able to tap into it more. And that has meant I'm more useful to the organisation, when you can kind of bring that. And I think, because I've always had a lot of stakeholder work, I think also being able to kind of, I guess, tap into how stakeholders are going, and what might be going on. And therefore, what we might need to do to just adjust that. Not even necessarily when they've really, you know, kind of set it. But, when you can just kind of sense it.

And I think that's what has also allowed me to do a lot of stakeholder work in my career. And, in the last year, is being able to tap into what just feels like they've got. Like just even things like, “Oh, you know, that feels like they're probably really busy.” Even though they haven't said it, you know. And so you know just to back off a little bit. So, I think it's allowed me to do better stakeholder work as well as that kind of strategic work, for sure.

Jo Host

Absolutely. There's something about dealing with other humans, where we can use those spidey-senses, and so many women shut it down. You know, if we don't have a data point, as you said, it's very, and the corporate world is very “data-driven.” And that's great! To a point. But, there is something magical when a woman starts to access that new level of intuition, which I love seeing you do.

Karen Guest

Yeah, because there was a lot. But, you know, in the last year there was a lot of uncertainty externally, right? And so, within the uncertainty, you have to be piecing together what you can of information, to navigate through it. And part of that is your sense of where things could go, and it's not going to go, and where it could go.

And that's where your intuition, I think, allows you to start to see potential paths. Because there's no data there, because it's what might be coming. You don't know! I think that's where intuition or guesswork is kind of useful as well, and again, it's not giving anyone certainty, but it's being able to kind of be prepared for some scenarios that might come forward. Just the leadership, you know, strategic leadership.

Jo Host

Yeah, but as you said, as you cultivate your own intuition, and as you start to trust it more. Then when you share, “I've got this feeling.” Or, you know, I suspect this may happen when you're more in alignment with your intuition on people, that lands more. Because when you're like, “Oh, I think this might go this way.” They're like, “Are you really sure?” Because, you're not actually in alignment with that thought.

But, I think what's probably been beautiful about your journey is, as you've trusted that intuition more, as you've stepped into it more, you're communicating it with more power, with more authenticity, and so then it lands, which I think has probably been a really powerful part of your journey, too.

Karen Guest

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely! And learning how to articulate it in a way that lands for people. I think that is absolutely a big part of it. It's trusting it yourself, firstly, and then it's being able to communicate it in a way that people can sort of understand, for sure. And that's been a big part of my sort of development, stepping onto the executive as well, because we've obviously got a lot of information coming to us, a lot of decision-making. And being able to kind of, I guess, find my voice within that. And that intuition is part of what’s been a big part of my journey.

Jo Host

Absolutely. And then, I guess, my final question for you is what advice would you give to anyone who is stuck where you were, in the weeds. But, knowing they have more potential. Maybe they’re sick all the time, maybe they’re unable to concentrate at home. What would you say to them?

Karen Guest

I mean, I would say to them, I think a lot of your development happens in the workplace. But, I think you have to create space outside of the workplace to be able to really do the analysis, and the kind of depth of work, to go to different layers. And so, I would say, “Make sure you're creating that space.” And obviously, you know, there's lots of different programs, and retreats, and things to be kind of leaning into. But I would say, “Yeah, you need that.”

Even though, you know, I've developed a lot in my career, and I've done different courses. I think the deeper work allows you to just be so much stronger, to navigate so much more. So yeah, I would say, create that space, make sure you're finding that space to do that work, and become the kind of leader you want to be, but create the kind of life that you want to as well. Because, you know, the program's obviously not just about work, it's about your whole life.

And I think, you know, lots of women in leadership do go against the grain, and that's not easy. And so, you need to create. You need to have those spaces where you're with others who are doing the same thing, and be held in those environments, so that you have an environment where you feel normal. But also, where you're safe to do the work. That would be my biggest advice. It's been game changing for me, for sure.

Jo Host

I love that. Well, Karen, thank you so much for coming and sharing your story. I'm very excited to see what the next six months hold. Obviously, we're going to get to hang out in the US, which is going to be lots of fun! And, yeah, I'm sure wherever you end up, they’re going to get an amazing leader who's going to be respected, and a role model for how women can do this life differently. So, thank you for coming!

Karen Guest

Thank you so much, Jo. 

OUTRO: Thank you for joining us today on the Balance and Beyond Podcast. We're so glad you carved out this time for yourself. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend who might need to hear this today. And if you're feeling extra generous, leaving us a review on your podcast platform of choice would mean the world. If you’re keen to dive deeper into our world, visit us at www.balanceinstitute.com to discover more about the toolkit that has helped thousands of women avoid burnout and create a life of balance, and beyond. Thanks again for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on the Balance & Beyond Podcast.