Balance & Beyond Podcast

What if the qualities that make great leaders have been right in front of us all along, but they're  often overlooked?

Discover how empathy, authenticity, and connection can transform your leadership journey as we explore a groundbreaking framework designed to help women unlock their full leadership potential. We'll guide you through identifying both admirable and undesirable leadership traits you've encountered, using John Maxwell's "Five Levels of Leadership" to understand why people truly follow us. Impactful leadership isn't about titles; it's about inspiring those around you, whether you're a receptionist or a CEO.

As we advance through the levels of leadership, from ego-driven positional leaders to those who inspire through personal impact, we highlight the unique challenges faced by women in leadership roles. Learn why women excel at building relationships and empathy but often struggle with decisiveness and delegating tasks. We discuss how to achieve results without burning out and the critical role of mentoring to ascend to higher leadership levels. Finally, we emphasise the necessity of authentic leadership and fostering psychological safety in the workplace. Reflect on your true self and bring that authenticity into every aspect of your life, as we guide you through this transformative journey of personal and professional growth.

Episode Transcript

INTRO: Welcome to Balance and Beyond, the podcast for ambitious women who refuse to accept burnout as the price of success. Here, we’re committed to empowering you with the tools and strategies you need to achieve true balance, where your career, relationships and health all thrive, and where you have the power to define success on your own terms. I honour the space you’ve created for yourself today, so take a breath, and let's dive right in…

It's time to redefine leadership. This is a word that is bandied around everywhere, but so few women actually know what it means and they have no idea how to get there. So, in today's episode, I'm going to be sharing with you one of the most powerful frameworks I have. Don't switch off, I promise this is a good one. It has really helped me redefine leadership, and also been a huge help for my clients to help them understand how to step into your true leadership potential, and how to rise, and become the leader that you know you were born to be. 

In my time, I have had some great leaders. When I think about the qualities of these leaders that I really admired, they were empathetic, they were authentic, they made fast decisions, they owned their mistake, they really connected with their teams, they were vulnerable, and they were somebody that I really looked up to and said, “Gosh, I can learn from this person!” “I want to be around this person.” “I feel inspired by them!” 

I've also had some really, really bad leaders. And by this, I mean, people who were dogmatic, who were misleading and deceptive, who blatantly lied to my face, stabbed people in the back, didn't listen, were uncollaborative, and it was really difficult for me to respect them, because it was their way or the highway. They had their blinkers on. They bulldozed everybody. And I remember thinking, “Wow, I'm really learning what I don't want to be from these particular people!” 

I encourage you to stop and pause for a minute, and think about what are some of the qualities of a leader that you have admired, who have come across your path? This may be in a work context, or perhaps in a community context, or even a relationship or family perspective. What are some of their traits and behaviors? 

And, likewise, what are some of their traits and behaviors of somebody who you have clashed with, or you have had tensions with? And I promise you, there are some very fascinating threads that run between these that can be the guideposts, if you will, or the path for how you become more of the leader that you want to become, the leader who's here for impact and to make a really big difference in the world. 

There is a beautiful framework, from a well-known influencer based out of the US called John Maxwell. Now, there's a gazillion and one leadership frameworks out there. I want to really encourage you not to tune out, knowing that if I've brought anything to this podcast into my world, it is super practical, and it's going to make sense. And this is such a simple framework that it can very easily be explained on a podcast. You do not need any graphic, although, I will put a link in the show notes, if you want to know more. 

This is called the five levels of influence, or the five levels of leadership, and it's based on this assumption that, as we start out as leaders, and we evolve on our leadership journey, people follow us ultimately for different reasons. And when you understand why people are following you, which is the definition of what a leader is, that you have someone who follows you. When you understand why people are following you, you've now got a pathway to ascend, to rise through the ranks, to become the type of leader that you know is going to impact others. 

I'm going to talk you through the levels of this pyramid, and it's not about the levels. It's about actually highlighting where you get stuck, and what is stopping you rising to be the cream of the crop in your role. First and foremost, I also want to clarify that when we start talking about leadership, many people make the mistake of overlaying leadership with hierarchy.

Now, you can be a receptionist with no direct reports, and be an impeccable leader. And I can promise you that I have worked with CEOs, when you understand this framework, who are terrible, terrible leaders. So, I want you to put aside hierarchy. Whether you want to be a CEO, whether you are one or not, that is irrelevant. What I want is for you to be stepping into the world, making the impact that you know you were born to make. 

This pyramid works on the assumption that, when we first start out, and become a leader, we are a leader based on our position. That is, we suddenly are thrust into some kind of supervisor role, and people follow us because they have to. It’s a hierarchy. They don't have a choice. It's really out of obligation. That's the feeling that they have. “I don't want to follow this person.” And I can assure you, there's five levels in this leadership framework. 

I've had CEOs who are level one. They throw around their title, their hierarchy, their rank, and they use everything to slap you down. This is not about growing anyone, it is simply going, “You have to listen to me.” And, ironically, you often see this type of leadership based on hierarchy and ego and status, often used in more community-based organizations, where you get somebody who's suddenly got this supposed position of power, and it goes straight to their head. 

So, as we move from level one to level two, how this leadership framework works is it's not that you now stop doing everything in level one, and start doing everything in level two. The idea is that the reason it's a pyramid is you're doing level one, and then you add on level two, and then you keep doing one, two, and then you add on level three. So, a level five leader, which is the pinnacle of where we're going for, encompasses all of these. 

So, a lot of women don't tend to get stuck at level one, because we move straight to level two leadership. And this is where people follow us, because they want to. This is where the leadership is based on a relationship. It's based on, for the people pleasers out there, we want everybody to like us. We want our team to like us. We want them to be friends with us. This can be great, because women are incredibly empathetic. We are great at building relationships. We are great at collaborating. Intuition is our superpower, and that's all wonderful. 

However, it can actually cause a huge amount of stress and strain, when we can't make the tough calls, when we can't step into conflict, or have the conversations that a leader really needs to have, because we're worried that people won't want to follow us. So, if you worry about upsetting your team, if you struggle to make the tough calls, there's a chance you're stuck at level two leadership, which, no surprise, is going to have a huge impact on your career potential, and leave you incredibly frustrated.

So, this is old wounds, about wanting people to like you, about what does that mean if you're not earned and expected, and a member of the tribe. So, if you are stuck at level two leadership, you, my friend, have some work to do on your old wounds. Where most women get stuck is the next level, which is level three leadership. By this, I mean, this is where people follow you because of your results. They follow you, because of what you've done for the company. This is where, my dear, “get stuff done” or “get shit done” people lie. People follow you, because you're a great leader, because you get stuff done, because you've got results, because you've got outcomes. 

That inherently isn't a bad thing. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. Of course you have to get results If you're going to earn respect as a leader. Well, of course you can't be that type of leader. This is often what the level one leaders were who did nothing, who achieved nothing and who just thumped you with their status. So, in order to earn that respect, yes, of course you have to achieve results. You have to do things for the company, demonstrate your expertise. 

However, this is where most women plateau. It becomes impossible to move up to level four, and level five, and if, for some reason, they manage to step up because they usually have the potential to level four, and level five leadership, they never let go of producing results, and so this is where they massively burn out, because they're trying to step up into greater levels of leadership, to have a bigger impact, to have a bigger influence, because they know they're capable of it. They know they can do it, and yet their identity is so heavily aligned with “doing stuff”, and producing, and results, that they can't ever let it go. 

So, the big gap that has to happen is, you've got to shift your identity and not just be known for somebody who can get stuff done. Until you're ready to do that, you will not ascend, without burning out, to these greater levels of leadership. So, let's talk about the “great chasm.” And now, if you start to let go, as you step up into being a level four leader, what this means is people start following you, because of what you've done for them. 

So, not just the results, but what you've done for them. The way people feel this, is you've delegated to them, you've mentored them, you've helped them step up, you've helped them grow. Can you see how, if you're stuck being a level three leader, where your people follow you because of what you've done and you won't delegate, which means you actually deny everybody else the chance to grow, and you cannot step up to that level, because you've not done anything for anyone? They've not grown, they've not evolved, they've not learned something, they've not been challenged. This is why people will follow you as a level four leader, because you've now found ways to not just produce, but you've found ways to grow other people. 

Ironically, women are the ones who are actually really, really good at this. There's a chance that you are an excellent coach, you're an excellent mentor, you can give your team the feedback. However, if they're going to learn, you also need to let go of what can keep you stuck at that level two leadership, where you want them to like you. I've had some really empowering and difficult conversations with my team members in the past, and they were zingers. 

I delivered feedback that they didn't want to hear, but they've all later on, either shortly after, or in years later, come back and said, “Thank you for sharing that piece of feedback with me.” “While it really hurt at the time, and I was really angry with you, after I simmered down, I was able to recognize that actually, this was the piece that was missing.” “Nobody else had ever shared in my career that I had this habit, while I was doing this thing.” 

Meanwhile, I could see that it was massively holding them back. I had to have the courage and let go of them, of my fear of them not liking me in sharing that with them. So this is where you are truly a people developer. You're a person evolver and people will follow you because of what you have done for them. As each layer of the pyramid stacks, it also requires a process of letting go. It requires letting go of something, to move from level one, to level two. It requires letting go of status and hierarchy. 

From two to three, it requires letting go of being liked, and being nice, and worrying about what people think of you, people pleasing as we move into, from up to level three. We've got to let go of being known only for getting stuff done, got to let go. You've got to delegate. You've got to put that stuff down. You've got to shift your identity, and be someone who's known for their leadership, for their mentorship, for supporting others. 

And then, finally, we start talking about stepping up to level five leadership, which is something that is the pinnacle, where people respect you on a different level. They respect you for how you've helped them, for the results that you've produced, and then, because of those two things, they then want to follow you. They want to be around you, and you will know that you're starting to become a level four and level five leader, when people follow you from company to company. 

So, if you've moved companies and then gone, shoulder tap someone, and say, “Well, you know, do you want to come with me?” Or when you leave somewhere, everybody says, “Where are you going?” “I will follow you.” And again, not just because of what you've done, but this is because of what you've done for them as well. This final transition, now, is the hardest, and this is because, when you're a level five leader, this is a new level of respect that people follow you, because of who you are. 

Oh, isn't that really tricky? They follow you because of who you are. What does that require of you, if people follow you for who you are? Well, first and foremost, it requires you to be yourself. And so many women are not themselves. In order to be yourself, you have to put down the perfectionist, because if people are going to see who you are, that is not perfect. And if you think that you have to be perfect, then they're not actually seeing the real you. They're seeing your armour. 

You have to put down the people-pleasing, because people-pleasers are inherently untrustworthy. People never know where they stand, they don't know if that's really you that says “Yes” to that thing. You're doing it because of what you think they think you should be doing. There’s a whole energetic exchange going on here, that if you are not aligned, and you are not clear, people don't actually know who you are, and you can't ascend to level five leadership. You have to acknowledge your humanity. You have to acknowledge your imperfections. You have to put “you” back in your life. 

It's one of the biggest barriers, apart from this baggage that we are holding around being the “get shit done person”, about being perfectionistic, and people pleasing, is that if you don't know who you are, you are not connected to that. How on earth is anybody else going to know who you are? And how can they follow you for that? So, this is the work that has to be done in order to step up to level five leadership. This is why, often leadership courses and things, try to help you understand who you are, and be authentic, and they talk about vulnerability. But, they don't talk about putting down the parts of you that don't serve you anymore. 

It requires deep work to stop being a perfectionist, to ask for help, to stop people-pleasing. And until you've got the courage to step up and do that work, then it becomes almost impossible, not impossible, but very, very difficult for you to be a level five leader. Because, in order to be a level five leader, people need to see who you are. But again, if you don't know who you are, you can't see who you are. Well then, they're not going to be able to feel that from you. 

So, this is the great challenge. So many women have the potential to be level five leaders. They've got the potential to have impact and influence beyond just their role, whether it's their organisation, their industry, the world at large, their communities. There is so much potential, and so much opportunity. But women have to get out of their own way and, ironically, a lot of people come to me when I share this pyramid, or this matrix with them, and they say, “Well, Jo, my organisation, it's the environment.” “They don't allow me to be this and that.” 

And to some extent, that may be true. You may be in a toxic organisation. Well, my challenge to you is, how do you ensure that you put yourself in an environment where you can’t be yourself? And part of the reason so many women are stuck in environments where they can't be themselves is because they don't know who they are. So, how on earth are they ever going to find a role, or an organisation, or a culture that matches who they are? Because, they don't know! 

So, they turn up to interviews, and they're saying the things that they want them to say. They're basing their perceptions of, you could say, culture based on what they think they should want, or what the old version of themselves wants, or what their wounded version of self wants. So, until you know who you are, nothing is going to change. 

But, once you do, my goodness, everything unlocks! You get to find the right culture, the right team, the right organisation, that really embraces you for your imperfections, for your flaws, that acknowledges what you've done for others, that allows you to step into mentorship roles, or more leadership roles, or industry-wide roles or influencing roles, where you can really flex these muscles. 

But again, this isn't just about the stuff that you do. It's actually more important about the stuff that you stop doing. This is about letting go, not doing more. And the more you can step into this space, then everything starts to unlock. This is a very different way to look at leadership, and it may challenge other models, matrices, things that you've seen in your organisation, or elsewhere.  

But, from a model perspective, I have never seen something that so clearly aligns to the work that we do here at the Balance Institute, and that is based on our experience now of working very closely with hundreds of high achieving women, and seeing what is holding them back, and this model does that so beautifully. 

You've got to transcend past being a “get shit done” person, and not just be known for your results. You've got to start coaching people. That's going to involve you letting go of worrying about liking them or them liking you, and then you've got to turn up as yourself. It's all these words about psychological safety that are bandied around at work, but no one is talking about what you've got to put down or what you've got to let go of, and that is the biggest obstacle. So today I challenge you to think about who you are, and how can you show up as that little bit more yourself, in all areas of your life today? 

OUTRO: Thank you for joining us today on the Balance and Beyond Podcast. We're so glad you carved out this time for yourself. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend who might need to hear this today. And if you're feeling extra generous, leaving us a review on your podcast platform of choice would mean the world. If you’re keen to dive deeper into our world, visit us at www.balanceinstitute.com to discover more about the toolkit that has helped thousands of women avoid burnout and create a life of balance, and beyond. Thanks again for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on the Balance & Beyond Podcast.